STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
One of the senators back to work today is Chris Coons, a Democrat from Delaware. He is on the Appropriations Committee, which is the committee that in theory is supposed to come up with bills for spending - federal spending for the fiscal year that begins October 1. Senator, good morning.
CHRIS COONS: Good morning, Steve. Great to be on with you.
INSKEEP: I'm glad to have you back. We just heard Claudia say that Republicans are rolling over Democrats again, that the president is aiming to roll over Congress, but the Democrats plan to, quote, "fight these efforts in a new way." What's the new way?
COONS: Well, in the Senate, we're going to try hard to keep the government open and to pass appropriations bills. But bluntly, President Trump and his allies in Congress have already been shutting down whole parts of the government, as was just reported, through rescissions and now through unconstitutional and dangerous pocket recissions. If they continue in those efforts, I won't support keeping the government open September 30 because they're already closing it in ways that are illegal and inappropriate. So we're going to stand up to his nominees. We're going to stand up to his overreach. And I'm not going to go along with keeping the government open unless they change course.
Now, Steve, right before we went out of session just over a month ago, in the Senate, we passed two of our biggest appropriations bills by big bipartisan margins out of committee. But the House and other Republicans in the Senate seem determined to keep moving ahead with shutting down everything from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to USAID to important public health programs. So we've got a fight on our hands this month.
INSKEEP: Although if you were to shut down the government after September 30, wouldn't that give the president even more leeway to do whatever he wants?
COONS: That's part of the challenge, and we're going to have to debate that a great deal. But let's be clear. I want to appropriate and I want to keep the government open, and so do the Democrats in the Senate. The question is whether the Republicans in the Senate are going to continue to go along with these recissions and, in particular, the pocket rescissions and give away Congress' critical power of the purse.
INSKEEP: Well, I want to ask about that if I can, Senator, and I just want to remind people of some basics. There was this rescission vote over the summer, which is a narrow Republican majority, used this procedure to override bipartisan spending priorities and cut things that the president wanted them to cut. This pocket rescission you're referring to - new concept to me. As you said, you argue that it's unconstitutional. The idea is the president would withhold spending...
COONS: New concept to the law, yes.
INSKEEP: Without even a vote by Congress, the idea is the - so I guess my question is, what's the point in appropriating at all if you presume that the president - if you presume the president and Republicans will just take it back whenever they feel like?
COONS: Correct. It breaks the basic role of Congress, the Article 1 power from our Constitution. I'm hopeful that the courts will block these pocket rescissions. But my Republican colleagues also need to step up and make clear to the president Congress is responsible for spending. And if they don't join us in doing that, I don't see any way forward through this but standing up to these pocket rescissions.
INSKEEP: I suppose you do have a month. Congress could just vote against this rescission.
COONS: That's correct. There's tools that my Republican colleagues have if they want to finally show the courage to stand up for their role as senators rather than as partisan Republicans, and it only takes four of them to do it. But so far, I've been bitterly disappointed in many of my colleagues who aren't standing up for the Senate and aren't standing up for the Constitution.
INSKEEP: Can you talk to me about that a little bit more? I mean, I - we had the conservative legal scholar John Yoo on the program recently, who quite possibly agrees with the substance of some of what's been done, but he said Congress is, quote, "subservient." That's the view of a conservative legal scholar. I think there's a widespread perception that Republicans are just doing whatever the president wants. The president will ignore them if they don't do whatever the president wants, and the Democrats are powerless. If somebody says, what's the point even of Congress right now, do you have an answer to them?
COONS: The answer is that we continue to work together to try and demonstrate that we can stand up to the president. The first nine months of his second term have been bitterly disappointing. I'll remind you, Steve, the last time there was a government shutdown - and it was the longest one in American history - was the first time Trump was president. He was cheering for it then. He's cheering for it now. He wants to break the guardrails. He wants to reduce or eliminate Congress' power to challenge him. And we need patriots in the Republican caucus to stand up to him. Otherwise, we are at real risk of just becoming shiny hood ornaments who meet in Washington, who speak, who debate, but who don't actually constrain the president's power. Our framers wanted us to be a constraint on presidential power.
INSKEEP: You said something also about challenging the president's nominees. I believe Republicans are talking about streamlining that process so they can approve nominees faster and faster. Do you have any leverage at all in about 10 seconds?
COONS: If they break the rules to accelerate his ability to nominate and confirm even more unqualified people, that will take us further down this road of division and destruction of the power of the Senate.
INSKEEP: But you can't do anything about it.
COONS: Not if all of them vote for it.
INSKEEP: Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, thanks so much - really appreciate it.
COONS: Thank you, Steve. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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