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The 'Uncuffed' podcast gives voice to California prisoners

SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

Ahead, we are going to hear from a group of people who are not allowed to vote but will be directly affected by the elections results. "Uncuffed" is a prison radio training program and a podcast where people in California prisons tell their stories. Host Thanh Tran visited San Quentin Rehabilitation Center to talk about voting rights, the presidential candidates, and one big ballot measure in California. Tran himself is formally incarcerated, and you'll hear him talking to currently incarcerated producers Ryan Pagan, Anthony Gomez and William Harris.

THANH TRAN: I remember the first time I voted when I got out, and the thing that I did not expect to receive was an I voted sticker. And what I did not expect is how freaking proud I was to have this I voted sticker stamped on my phone. I put that thing on my phone. I want everybody to know I'm a voting citizen, right? I cares about my community, right? I wasn't as excited about this election, this presidential election, but it's very real, and it's very relevant. So I want to ask y'all about this current presidential election real quick. Is that cool? Go ahead.

RYAN PAGAN: You mentioned the general election. I just am not really excited about either candidates. It's sad that it seems like every four years, we're - you know, the American people - we're constantly voting on the lesser of two evils.

TRAN: Ryan, talking about the lesser of two evils - right now, we got Harris. who is the prosecutor candidate. versus Trump, the felon candidate, right? And it's like, all right, so you want me to vote between this person who incarcerated thousands of people in California, right? Like, this is the harmful legacy she has left behind. And our other option is Trump the felon, as they're calling him, right? And as much as I have disdain for the fella - you know what I mean? - it's harder for me to say felon than it is for me to say Trump. An (ph), tell us more, how does that land with you hearing about this?

ANTHONY GOMEZ: Oh, man. So funny story - right? - I remember not so long ago having a conversation with a good friend of mine. And probably not the best idea to talk politics - right? - but she goes on and is, like, you know, Trump's a - he's a felon, and he's this, and he's that. You know what I mean? And that's why I'm going to vote for Kamala and this, this, that and the other. And she had some valid points.

But when she said that word felon, it, like, stung me. And I almost wanted to tell her, like, I mean, I'm a felon. You know what I mean? Like, what do you think of me, you know? And - but I know she doesn't think of me, like, in any negative way, and I know she thinks highly of me. But I don't know why I took it personal. Like, it hurt. Like, damn. You said he's a felon. Like this - but that's not even who, like, I, like, have favor for. You know what I mean?

TRAN: Right. Like, I'll name this. There's plenty of other reasons to dislike Trump than just the fact that he recently got charged with a crime. People disliked him long before that, right? So I feel like we should focus on the issues like Ryan is saying, like An is saying, versus the inflammatory language. Will, how you feel about that?

WILLIAM HARRIS: Well, yes, I hear what you guys are saying. I do. But if I were a politician, I'd be doing exactly what they're doing because the bottom line is, the reason why these politicians mix the issues up and don't actually address them is because the people do not vote for them on issues. They just don't. They vote on personality.

You got this buffoon. Donald Trump is a buffoon. And that's just Will Harris' opinion. Donald Trump is a buffoon. He's a moron. People are eating dogs and all the stupid things he was saying - no, that's ridiculous. However, people love that. They love the bravado, the entertainment of it all, and they vote on that because if they were actually voting on issues, they wouldn't vote for either one of these two because none of them have said anything about what they're actually going to do.

TRAN: Yeah. Thank you for - I really appreciate how...

GOMEZ: Yeah.

PAGAN: Very passionate.

TRAN: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

GOMEZ: Yeah. I see there's a lot of sweat beating down your forehead.

PAGAN: My veins. You...

TRAN: So real quick, I really appreciate how you grounded that, and I welcome that perspective. So we're talking about, you know, this presidential election. We're kind of zoomed out a little bit, you know? And from the top end, I said, man, this is not where really I'm passionate about. I care more about downballot things. So I want to zoom in and talk about some of the issues that we in California are looking at. Who wants to talk a little bit more about Proposition 6? Tell me about Prop 6.

PAGAN: Yeah, let me get into that 'cause I've got notes to make sure I get this totally right, so hang with me here. If you vote yes on this proposition, you're telling the state to amend its constitution and ban involuntary servitude. The California legislator voted on a similar proposal a couple years ago, and they did not pass it. Part of the reason for that was the bill would have required the state to pay us incarcerated workers minimum wage. Politicians like the governor were concerned about the cost. It would have been something like $1 1/2 billion a year.

So they took out the part about the pay and are now just asking voters to decide if the language of involuntary servitude should be removed from the Constitution. If voters say yes, then we won't be forced to work. We will have to give our consent, and we won't be punished if we say no. Will, what do you think about that?

HARRIS: I've been discriminated against a lot in my lifetime, growing up where I - you know, 'cause I've been in neighborhoods where I was the only Black kid. I've been in neighborhoods where I was the only person of color there.

And so when you talk about indentured servitude and when you talk about slavery, my perspective is working is a fact of life. Everybody who wants to take care of himself has a job, so I don't mind having a job. I don't mind working. I don't even mind the pay, so to speak. I mean, I do, but I don't have to pay for food. I don't have to pay for clothing. I don't have to pay for my - where to sleep.

But being discriminated against is - being treated inhumanely is what means something to me. And you said that the legislature isn't willing to legislate that, hey, we have to treat human beings like humans. I did not give up my right to be human because I committed a crime. Nobody gives that up.

So now that I'm a slave, basically - because that's what I am right now. I am a slave 'cause once that's in the Constitution, that's how they can treat me. That language is not just symbolic to me. It means something to me. I am a human being, and all I'm asking for is to treat me humanely. That is it.

TRAN: Absolutely. An, I want to get your thoughts real quick before I close out this piece of it.

GOMEZ: Well, I just think one thing to consider is, you know, the public - they have this misconception about people deserving punishment after they've committed a crime. They probably have this, like, old-fashioned mindset like, we deserve to be in prison and breaking rocks with sledgehammers, you know? And they think that that's fair. I think what people forget is that prison itself is the punishment. Like, we are ostracized from society. You know, we're removed from our loved ones. We're removed from the communities that we harmed, you know? And there's a lot of mental, emotional, physical struggles that comes with that that we have to endure.

TRAN: Absolutely. Yeah, I think, man, like, y'all said it beautifully. Like, I feel really moved in this moment. There's a heavy feeling in the room when we're talking about this subject because this is something that we had to live through. And just in this room alone, there's over 100 years of incarceration. If people aren't coming back to prison, that means we are increasing our public safety.

But if we continue to call people slaves and treat them as slaves while they're incarcerated and dehumanize them, how can we bring back home healed neighbors into our community? So that's what I truly feel this proposition is about. What type of neighbor do you want coming home to you? The person who was treated like a slave for two decades, or a person that was given the resources they need to make sure they never hurt another human being again?

PAGAN: I'm very proud of all of you guys. I'm kind of sitting back and hearing, you know, Will and Anthony and you, Thanh, talk, and I'm like, these guys are incarcerated? Or, you know, Thanh, for your case, you were formally incarcerated. Dude, we sound smart.

(LAUGHTER)

DETROW: You can hear more of the "Uncuffed" podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.